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 Post subject: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 16th, 2017, 9:10 am 
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AZS Regular
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Joined: March 1st, 2009, 12:01 am
Posts: 132
Location: N. Phoenix
Greetings fellas,

Getting ready to make my first NFA purchase, a 22 can, and have read at nauseum posts about the changes to the NFA trust regulations.

As I understand it, the only real benefit at this time of a trust is that a responsible person (as designated by the trust) may have control of the NFA item without me being present (as compared to individual registration).

I also get that there can be advantages supposedly in the long-term ownership of the device, as opposed to having to will it to another individual if I were to become deceased. Do I understand that correctly? There's a lot of conversation about changes surrounding transference to beneficiaries without any real information.

So big question becomes, trust or not to trust? Especially since I don't already have one, and the creation of one costs as much as the stamp.

Any advice or guidance you can provide is much appreciated.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 16th, 2017, 12:07 pm 
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AZS; Woohoo!
AZS; Woohoo!

Joined: March 2nd, 2007, 6:15 am
Posts: 1738
Location: Mesa
I've had a Trust since the 1990's. The idea of a trust is YOU decide who gets what when you go, without probate (which can take sometime). You can update / change it as you wish. (I would advise NOT to get it recorded because ANYONE can access it).
Back in the early 1900's, 1920's, 1930's the big Corporations bought machine guns for their goon squads to stop striker breakers and such. Guess what, they put them in their "Trusts"..... Along comes a brainy person, who says, I'll just use my "Trust" for NFA stuff, after all a trust is a trust!!... You don't have to be too smart to figure the GOV. is not liking the trust this way, SO what to do?... Let's make everyone in the trust do the whole "Monty", pics, fingerprints, etc. "Problem" solved

If you do decide on a trust, remember a Lawyer or Para Legal can prepare the paper work. A trust is a good investment for most people anyhow, NFA or not.


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 16th, 2017, 12:35 pm 
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AZS; Woohoo!
AZS; Woohoo!
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Joined: June 2nd, 2008, 1:14 pm
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#1, I'm not an attorney
#2, I've spoken to several attorneys who agree with the following and have said that there is no ruling on the following:

I have a trust and I will continue to do NFA items in my trust because I can control what happens to NFA items if I die, I'm incapacitated or simply decide to amend the trust in the future.

41F requires that all "responsible parties" get printed and approved. In a trust the only responsible parties are settlors and trustees. In my case, I am the settlor and I am the sole trustee. I have successor trustees and beneficiaries of the trust but they have no control over any trust Assets until I'm gone. In my case the only thing that has changed is I can't add other joint trustees and allow them to use the my NFA items. I will do one fingerprint card and one submission.

Here is another interesting thought within the definition of "responsible person":
Is a beneficiary a responsible person if your trust authorizes them to possess assets but does not authorize them to compel the settlor or trustee to allow them to posses the asset. That is a legal discussion for an Arizona trustee lawyer and someone willing to defend that position if ATF comes after you.

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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 16th, 2017, 3:39 pm 
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AZS; Woohoo!
AZS; Woohoo!
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Joined: June 7th, 2008, 6:07 am
Posts: 1605
Location: Apache Junction, Az
http://www.myguntrust.com/faqs

This site is the best written with the most information on using a trust and how to avoid common mistakes.
They offer a trust prepared by an attorney personalized to your needs for $250 or you can use their online system for creating a trust for $99.

Do your research, an improperly created trust will get you your stamp but later can put you or your heirs in prison.

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Ex. 22:2 If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 16th, 2017, 7:00 pm 
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AZS Regular
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Joined: March 1st, 2009, 12:01 am
Posts: 132
Location: N. Phoenix
Thanks for the responses. Spent a lot of time reading on the link A/C provided, good info. Trust makes good sense in the context of beneficiaries.


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 16th, 2017, 9:23 pm 
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AZS; Woohoo!
AZS; Woohoo!
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Joined: June 2nd, 2008, 1:14 pm
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You may be able to answer your own question. Without going through the ages and personalities of your children, and assuming your item is a SBR:

If you do not have a trust and you die, your SBR will go with all of your other property to your wife. If you are incapacitated, your wife will be in control of it. She can sell it, destroy it, if she hates firearms, she can give it away with a form 4 transfer to anyone that is a legal possessor.

If you have a trust, the trustee must follow the instructions of the trust. You can direct your SBR to be transferred to your brother, and as many alternatives as you desire. You can appoint 2 successor trustees to insure you wishes are followed and notify the beneficiaries of what to expect. There are man safeguards with a trust.

Short answer to your question, YES on the trust for my circumstances. You think about yours.

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"Peace Is A Dream Only Achieved When Good Men Are Willing To Commit Great Violence Upon Evil Men


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 17th, 2017, 1:25 pm 
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AZS Regular
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Joined: March 1st, 2009, 12:01 am
Posts: 132
Location: N. Phoenix
Thanks everyone, now I need a good trust name!


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 17th, 2017, 5:23 pm 
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AZS; Woohoo!
AZS; Woohoo!
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Joined: June 2nd, 2008, 1:14 pm
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KEEP IT SHORT. ie. (XX) NFA TRUST. long names will screw you over on engraving locations.

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"Peace Is A Dream Only Achieved When Good Men Are Willing To Commit Great Violence Upon Evil Men


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: July 17th, 2017, 7:19 pm 
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AZS Regular
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Joined: March 1st, 2009, 12:01 am
Posts: 132
Location: N. Phoenix
I didn't think of the name in the terms of space and associated engraving cost. Thanks for the heads up.


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: August 9th, 2017, 8:40 am 
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Joined: November 25th, 2006, 2:47 pm
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And what is the problem with noting your NFA items in your will?


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: August 9th, 2017, 11:35 am 
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AZS; Woohoo!
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Joined: June 2nd, 2008, 1:14 pm
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brucea4 wrote:
And what is the problem with noting your NFA items in your will?


Three answers from the site mentioned above:

(1) NFA firearms registered to a gun trust can be used and possessed by more than one person. The settlor of the gun trust can add or delete persons (co-trustees) who are allowed to use and possess the NFA firearms throughout his or her lifetime. NFA firearms registered to an individual can only be used and possessed by the registered individual during the individual’s lifetime.

(2) NFA firearms registered to a gun trust pass to the beneficiaries of the gun trust outside of the probate process according to the terms and conditions of the gun trust agreement prepared by the settlor. NFA firearms registered to an individual pass to his or her beneficiaries according to the terms of the individual’s last will and testament, which is probated in a probate court and provided to the ATF during the transfer process so the executor can prove to the ATF that the individual intended to transfer the NFA firearms to the beneficiaries.

(3) If your NFA firearms are owned by you individually and you are later deemed to be incompetent, your NFA firearms are subject to confiscation immediately since it is illegal for any other individual to take possession of your NFA firearms. On the other hand, if your gun trust owns your NFA firearms, any co-trustee can take possession of your NFA firearms to hold them on your behalf. In other words, you will not lose ownership of your firearms. As a result, you will retain the ability to either direct that the NFA firearms be sold and the cash returned to you, or that the NFA firearms continue to be held in trust for the beneficiaries to inherit when you die.

_________________
"Peace Is A Dream Only Achieved When Good Men Are Willing To Commit Great Violence Upon Evil Men


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: August 9th, 2017, 11:53 am 
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Joined: November 25th, 2006, 2:47 pm
Posts: 818
Noted.....


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 Post subject: Re: 1st NFA Purchase, Trust or Not to Trust?
New postPosted: August 9th, 2017, 12:28 pm 
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AZS; Woohoo!
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Joined: June 2nd, 2008, 1:14 pm
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There is also some discussion between attorneys that in an NFA trust, the trustee can grant successor trustees temporary access to trust assets. The attorneys content that the successor trustees cannot demand control of assets or require control of assets so they are not controlling parties under 41F and do not need to be printed and included with the form 1 or 4 applications. This would mean you could continue to allow you wife/son/daughter legal access to NFA items without them being printed and getting ATF approval.

I have not heard this being ruled on by anyone but it sounds as plausible as the original argument that a trust is not a person so it doesn’t need prints etc.

If anyone else knows anything about this... please comment.

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"Peace Is A Dream Only Achieved When Good Men Are Willing To Commit Great Violence Upon Evil Men


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