ArizonaShooting.com

I am a "newbie", but am unbelievably impressed with this site, and how it is controlled. I live in Michigan, in a city with a police department that is extremely strict about issuing a "permit to purchase" a hand gun.....and unless you are retired FBI you can forget about ever getting a concealed weapon permit.

I am a lawyer (do you know the difference between a dead rattlesnake in the middle of the road, and a dead lawyer in the same spot? Skid marks in front of the rattlesnake.).

Anyway, I do only divorce work and was threatened by a big guy. I told our local permitting officer about it, and that I had taken a week-long hand gun safety course, and planned only to keep the weapon in my home, where I live alone.

The officer told me to come back in a year! And I have never been charged with anything more than a speeding ticket, no restraining orders, etc. I absolutely met all the criteria.

I am a Vietnam vet, but never saw combat and had never really thought much about my 2nd Amendment rights....but this arbitrary denial of a CONSTITUTIONAL right has made me a true believer.

And the ironic thing, I walked into a local hardware store and within 15 minutes walked out with a Mossberg 930 and 100 rounds of ammunition. So I feel protected, but am not comfortable I could get it out and use it quickly enough if the crazy ex-husband breaks through my door. I had picked out a Glock after my training course, and was confident I could use it if I had to.

Thanks for letting me vent. Has anyone else out there had to go through this type of frustrating experience?

Steve

Michigan has been a Shall issue state for CCW for nearly 10 years from what I recall. I am originally from michigan. So, I have done some research on reciprocity and just general knowlege for my family there and for when I visit.

Meaning that so long as you meet the background requirements they, the local issuing body, has no choice but to issue you with a permit.

Maybe this would be a step that would help towards getting a permit to purchase/own/transport and get through your retarded local ownership laws.

edit to add: - beware wall of text ahead
So people know just what a mess it is to purchase a hand gun in your lovely state.

Purchasing and Registering a Pistol in Michigan

In Michigan, a person "shall not purchase, carry, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol," as prescribed in MCL 28.422. These licenses shall be obtained by the local police agency. If the city, township, or village does not have an organized police agency, the license shall be obtained by the county sheriff department.

There is an exception for a person licensed in Michigan to carry a concealed pistol. He or she must obtain a Pistol Sales Record (RI-060) any time he or she purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, pursuant to MCL 28.422a. - something worth looking into -

The police authority will check for any criminal record at both the state and national level.

An applicant must comply with all state and federal laws prior to the issuance of the license. The following are state and federal laws that prohibit an individual from receiving a license:

Michigan - MCL 28.422

Probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state of the United States.
The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the Law Enforcement Information Network pursuant to any of the following:

MCL 330.1464a - Involuntary hospitalization or alternative treatment program
MCL 700.444a - Legally incapacitated (now MCL 700.5107)
MCL 600.2950 - Personal Protection Order
The Personal Protection Order must be active. Inactive PPOs will stay on file for five years for historical purposes.
MCL 600.2950a - Stalking
MCL 552.14 - Restraining Order
MCL 765.6b - Release subject to protective conditions
MCL 769.16b - Not guilty by reason of insanity

Under 18

Not a U.S. citizen or resident alien and a resident of Michigan

Prohibited from possessing, using, transporting, etc. under MCL 750.224f

Adjudged insane in this state or elsewhere, unless restored to sanity by court order

Under an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness

Adjudged legally incapacitated

Unable to correctly answer 70% of the questions on the basic pistol safety questionnaire.

Federal - 18 USC §922(g) & (n)

Under indictment for or have been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year

Fugitive of justice

Unlawful user of, or addicted to, any controlled substance (convicted, of possession within last year, multiple arrests for possession within the past five years if most recent arrest occurred within the past year, or positive drug test within last year)

Adjudicated as mental defective or been committed to any mental institution

Alien and is illegally or unlawfully in the U.S. (alien without permanent residence status)

Dishonorably discharged from the military

Formally renounced U.S. citizenship

Subject to a court order prohibiting harassing, stalking, or threatening of an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner or from engaging in other conduct that would place the partner or child in reasonable fear of bodily injury

Convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (does not have to be classified as a "domestic crime")

Under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year

If the purchaser is not a U.S. Citizen, an Immigrant-Alien Query (IAQ) check must be conducted through NLETS. An agency MUST wait for a response before proceeding. This could take up to three days.

If the reply to the NICS check reveals no state or federal prohibitors, the license process may proceed. The applicant must answer gun related questions on a Basic Pistol Safety Questionnaire, with at least 70% correct, and swear before a notary that they meet the statutory requirements to own a pistol.

The License to Purchase a Pistol form must be completed even though the applicant may already have possession of a pistol, such as through an inheritance. Federal firearms licensed dealers are not exempt from this section of the law and must also get a license any time they purchase/acquire a pistol from an individual or another gun dealer. There is an exemption only for dealers purchasing pistols directly from the manufacturer or wholesaler.

If the law enforcement agency determines that the applicant is prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm, an NICS Guide for Appealing a Firearm Transfer DENIAL pamphlet, with the NICS Transaction Number (NTN) written on the cover is provided to the applicant.

A License to Purchase a Pistol is valid for 10 days to purchase a pistol. The seller must sign the license and keep one copy for his/her records. An individual must keep a copy and return two copies to the local police department within 10 days of purchasing the pistol.

Some agencies require all unused license to purchase forms be returned to them for record keeping purposes.

These forms are licenses to purchase a pistol and the purpose is not to circumvent the required NICS (National Instant Check System) check when buying a shotgun or rifle from an FFL dealer.

The above is taken directly from msp web site.
The below is in referance to that exception I mentioned. (MCL 28.422a)

FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
Act 372 of 1927


28.422a Individual licensed under MCL 28.425b or a federally licensed firearms dealer; completion of record by seller; duties of purchaser; noncompliance as state civil infraction; penalty; forwarding copy of record to state police; exemption; material false statement as felony; penalty; rules; "federally licensed firearms dealer" defined.

Sec. 2a.

(1) An individual who is licensed under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or who is a federally licensed firearms dealer is not required to obtain a license under section 2 to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol.

(2) If an individual licensed under section 5b or a federally licensed firearms dealer purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall complete a record in quadruplicate on a form provided by the department of state police. The record shall include the purchaser's concealed weapon license number or, if the purchaser is a federally licensed firearms dealer, his or her dealer license number. The purchaser shall sign the record. The seller may retain 1 copy of the record. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the record and forward 2 copies to the police department of the city, village, or township in which the purchaser resides, or, if the purchaser does not reside in a city, village, or township having a police department, to the county sheriff, within 10 days following the purchase or acquisition. The return of the copies to the police department or county sheriff may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the police department or county sheriff. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police. If the purchaser is licensed under section 5b, the court shall notify the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.

(3) Within 48 hours after receiving the record copies returned under subsection (2), the police department or county sheriff shall forward 1 copy of the record to the department of state police. The police department or county sheriff shall retain the other copy of the record as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the record copies returned under subsection (2), the police department or county sheriff shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the police department or county sheriff does not have that ability, the police department or county sheriff shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any police department or county sheriff that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The police department or county sheriff may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The purchaser may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the record. However, the person is not required to have the record in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.

(4) This section does not apply to a person or entity exempt under section 2(7).

(5) An individual who makes a material false statement on a sales record under this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

(6) The department of state police may promulgate rules to implement this section.

(7) As used in this section, "federally licensed firearms dealer" means an individual who holds a type 01 dealer license under 18 USC 923.


History: Add. 2000, Act 381, Eff. July 1, 2001 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 194, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009 ;-- Am. 2010, Act 210, Eff. Feb. 15, 2011
Compiler's Notes: Former MCL 28.422a, which pertained to a basic pistol safety brochure, was repealed by Act 220 of 1992, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992.
Popular Name: CCW
Popular Name: Concealed Weapons
Popular Name: CPL
Popular Name: Right to Carry
Popular Name: Shall Issue

© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan

IMO, do your due diligence and after much red tape you may very well be able to side step your local departments "good 'ol boys" network.

Sonoffb,

I mean no disrespect, but I graduated with honors from Harvard Law School, and trust me, I read and understand the laws of MI concerning a permit to purchase. I am just dealing with a local jerk.

Thank you, though, seriously for taking the time to reply, and please take no offense from my response.

I am just frustrated by this situation, and had hoped I could get some advice from anyone else who has gone through such an experience.

Thanks.

Steve

That hundred rounds of ammo for the shot gun, it isnt bird shot is it?

Michigan is a shall issue state. They should have to show cause that you are not qualified. Call the state police and ask about the process. Actually put in a formal application using their forms. You'll get one.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-12 ... --,00.html

No offense taken, would take far more then that and I can tell you're frustrated by your circumstances.

My personal limited understanding comes from assisting my brother to over come his issues as an ex-felon who had his rights restored.

I am no lawyer and wouldn't be so pretentious as to play one on teh interwebs.

However, I figure if he can do it, anyone should be capable.

Shall issue means just that. Unless you have some type of previous criminal history, a current order of protection, or some other disqualification they actually CAN NOT tell you no.


So would it be possible for you to elaborate on how city/village/county "people" are obstructing you from obtaining a ccw through the state. If you have a county gun board, what have they specifically used as a reason to deny you?

Move to AZ We can buy guns and walk out with them the same day! Plus you can carry however you wish most places. We have a high divorce rate too, so you can make money to buy more guns

lol, all too true

LOL.

Welcome!

Now that is hilarious! A hand gun and divorces. since I am retired, pretty much, a move West is not appealing. Besides, I had a case there in the early 90's and remember taking a jog (dumb in retrospect) at our lunch break. I had done the Chicago Marathon the previous fall, and was in great shape. I literally passed out on the side of this little dirt road near the plant where I was doing a deposition! A guy picked me up and some Gatorade later I was OK, but it was scary. Too hot.

And no corn fields (or amber waves of grain), just dirt and heat.

But cool people!

Part of what was so frustrating is the lack of an appeal process. The denial I received had a case number, with instructions on how to file an appeal. I sent in a formal letter, cited MI law, etc, and received a reply saying there was no such number in the federal system. That was when I just decided to try and buy the Mossberg (which is very cool by the way, but I have yet to fire it).

I then called our jerk permitting police officer and asked him how I could buy a shotgun, in about 15 minutes, but he could deny me a permit to purchase a hand gun. He was polite, but basically said "because we don't want hand guns in our city."

Now, keep in mind I play golf regularly with our chief circuit court judge, a very nice guy. I called him to ask how this could be, and he said HE had no control over the process and knew of no way to appeal short of a civil suit....which was just too big a hassle for me since I had the Mossberg and felt safe.

As I said, however, this "Gestapo state" high-handedness totally converted me to a 2A true believer. I now get it when I see people carrying anti-government signs.

My brother has been a police officer for over 30 years in Indiana, so I am not against cops. But this whole experience changed my view on how some local government official gets to have such control over our lives. Very, very frustrating when you think you live in a free country, with constitutionally protected rights.

Again, hope no offense was taken by anyone, and thanks for letting me vent.

Steve

The Mossberg ammo is 12guage, 2.75 inch buckshot. Low recoil, 9 pellets, 00 Buck according to the box. The guy told me it would stop a moose coming at me.....it is manufactured by Federal Ammunition.

Did I waste my money?

Were you denied on the permit to purchase or the conceal pistol permit?

Simply the permit to purchase.....which was what was so frustrating. In a county over, I am told by friends, there would have been absolutely no issue. I live in the 2nd largest city in MI, and they literally have one city police officer with total control over issuing permits to purchase, and he simply refuses to issue them upon your first request. I could file a civil lawsuit (and believe me I have considered) but it is just such a hassle.

I don't want to sound defensive here, but I assure everyone reading this that I met every requirement for a permit to purchase....and as I said, the same week he denied me I was able to get a federal firearm permit and purchase my Mossberg. The requirements are identical, it is just that MI has language that gives discretion to the local issuing official to deny (seriously, for basically no reason) and our guy just does not want his citizens to own handguns.

Arghhhh.

Thanks again for listening.

Steve

If anyone has thoughts on my ammo, it would be appreciated.

Steve

sounds like standard 00-buck not bad for general purpose self defense at all.

I highly suggest you go the route of getting your conceal carry permit.
They are forced by law to issue this to you if you meet the requirements and it bypasses the need for a permit to purchase.

Take a moment and read the second half of my first post and you will see that this will remedy your issues.

"(1) An individual who is licensed under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or who is a federally licensed firearms dealer is not required to obtain a license under section 2 to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol."