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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 15th, 2009, 6:14 pm 
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administrator wrote:
Where do you rank getting treated with respect by the instructors?

I have heard that some places are needlessly heavy handed, but maybe some people are into that.


I don't particularly care for it, but others may. That is something that I would need to research in phase 4...

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 15th, 2009, 7:22 pm 
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One of the best classes I took was from a real deal tactical guy who admitted he would not mince words with us because he has a day job and teaching pays for his toys, not his mortgage. He was not afraid to tell us we were fat, moving too slow, not shooting well enough, or doing stupid shit. We were not coddled. The better a student was or the more experience he had the harder the instructor was on them. I want instructors that push for excellence, not those that accept a minimum standard as good enough.


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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 15th, 2009, 7:23 pm 
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ranger_sxt wrote:
administrator wrote:
Where do you rank getting treated with respect by the instructors?

I have heard that some places are needlessly heavy handed, but maybe some people are into that.


I don't particularly care for it, but others may. That is something that I would need to research in phase 4...


After some of the dumb shit I've seen people do in classes, being anything but heavy handed with some students would be doing nothing but feeding their egos.


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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 15th, 2009, 7:38 pm 
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Tim McBride wrote:
administrator wrote:
Where do you rank getting treated with respect by the instructors?

I have heard that some places are needlessly heavy handed, but maybe some people are into that.



I'll be honest this is huge with me. I don't feel the need to be berated by someone I am paying. The only real exception I see for it is saftey violations. If I can train people in the Army without losing my mind (And half of them don't even want to be there for training) you should be able to train a bunch of folks who PAID to be there with a fairly civil tone.


I would hope the instructors have enough experience to identify the "Gomer Pyles" from the people actually paying attention. "Word of mouth" can be one of the best or worst forms of advertising and if an entire class (or classes) comes away with a bad attitude because the instructor was a douche, it will eventually show in the number of times that instructor's phone doesn't ring.

Looking at it from a different perspective, the number of people who need a heavy hand is probably low compared to the whole population.


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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 15th, 2009, 8:17 pm 
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administrator wrote:
Where do you rank getting treated with respect by the instructors?

I have heard that some places are needlessly heavy handed, but maybe some people are into that.



This is what seperates the Masters form the wannabees.
I would have a serious discussion with the instructor if I thought he was being disrespectful to myself or one of my classmates.

M

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 15th, 2009, 8:41 pm 
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AzIDPA wrote:
administrator wrote:
Where do you rank getting treated with respect by the instructors?

I have heard that some places are needlessly heavy handed, but maybe some people are into that.



This is what seperates the Masters form the wannabees.
I would have a serious discussion with the instructor if I thought he was being disrespectful to myself or one of my classmates.

M


A big +1


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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 15th, 2009, 9:22 pm 
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Sinistral_Rifleman wrote:
One of the best classes I took was from a real deal tactical guy who admitted he would not mince words with us because he has a day job and teaching pays for his toys, not his mortgage. He was not afraid to tell us we were fat, moving too slow, not shooting well enough, or doing stupid shit. We were not coddled. The better a student was or the more experience he had the harder the instructor was on them. I want instructors that push for excellence, not those that accept a minimum standard as good enough.


If it's the class I took with you and the guys in Casa Grande, I concur. BUT, while he wasn't coddling, he wasn't abusive. I don't mind someone pushing me to be better by imposing stress or time limits, but there's no call to be abusive and such.

As for Tac-Train, I've taken several courses from him, and my wife took a handgun course from him. One of the better training values out there, IMO...local, fairly priced and quality instruction. George doesn't suffer fools, but if you're there to learn, he's there to teach. He is a VERY strong proponent of the Second Amendment, and believes that learning to fight is as important as learning to shoot...and knowing the difference is very important. I am planning to take more courses from him.

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 16th, 2009, 8:26 am 
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Sinistral_Rifleman wrote:
One of the best classes I took was from a real deal tactical guy who admitted he would not mince words with us because he has a day job and teaching pays for his toys, not his mortgage. He was not afraid to tell us we were fat, moving too slow, not shooting well enough, or doing stupid shit. We were not coddled. The better a student was or the more experience he had the harder the instructor was on them. I want instructors that push for excellence, not those that accept a minimum standard as good enough.


All of which can be conveyed in a civil manner; berating or being abusive to students doesn't do you any good. If the suck, tell them how they failed and how to FIX it, in a constructive and civil manner.

Resorting to such behavior is a tactic of those who don't know how to teach or train someone who wants to be there. Obviosuly if a student is paying you to train them the want to learn and they want to be there. It is not Army basic training.

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 16th, 2009, 8:28 am 
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TimW wrote:
BUT, while he wasn't coddling, he wasn't abusive. I don't mind someone pushing me to be better by imposing stress or time limits, but there's no call to be abusive and such.


This sums out the point I was trying to make.

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 16th, 2009, 8:14 pm 
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TimW wrote:
Sinistral_Rifleman wrote:
One of the best classes I took was from a real deal tactical guy who admitted he would not mince words with us because he has a day job and teaching pays for his toys, not his mortgage. He was not afraid to tell us we were fat, moving too slow, not shooting well enough, or doing stupid shit. We were not coddled. The better a student was or the more experience he had the harder the instructor was on them. I want instructors that push for excellence, not those that accept a minimum standard as good enough.


If it's the class I took with you and the guys in Casa Grande, I concur. BUT, while he wasn't coddling, he wasn't abusive. I don't mind someone pushing me to be better by imposing stress or time limits, but there's no call to be abusive and such.

As for Tac-Train, I've taken several courses from him, and my wife took a handgun course from him. One of the better training values out there, IMO...local, fairly priced and quality instruction. George doesn't suffer fools, but if you're there to learn, he's there to teach. He is a VERY strong proponent of the Second Amendment, and believes that learning to fight is as important as learning to shoot...and knowing the difference is very important. I am planning to take more courses from him.



who was this guy?

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 16th, 2009, 11:12 pm 
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AzIDPA wrote:
who was this guy?


Bennie Cooley

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 16th, 2009, 11:44 pm 
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and I thought so highly of him (scratches name off of "to train with" list).

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 17th, 2009, 12:34 am 
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You're discussing the guy I took the class with with Russell, right? I guess I don't understand your reticence. I think everyone who took the course learned a lot. He pointed out where I was weak, gave me pointers on how I can make my strong points better, and never "yelled" or was abusive...I was agreeing with Russell....Bennie pushed for excellence, and didn't coddle poor performance. But he also didn't belittle poor performance, but tried to help the shooter overcome it.

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 17th, 2009, 1:27 pm 
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Looks like I am going to give Suarez a try.

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 Post subject: Re: What I look for when Choosing a Training Venue
New postPosted: December 17th, 2009, 5:58 pm 
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AzIDPA wrote:
and I thought so highly of him (scratches name off of "to train with" list).


Bennie Cooley's class was the best class I've ever taken period.

TimW wrote:
You're discussing the guy I took the class with with Russell, right? I guess I don't understand your reticence. I think everyone who took the course learned a lot. He pointed out where I was weak, gave me pointers on how I can make my strong points better, and never "yelled" or was abusive...I was agreeing with Russell....Bennie pushed for excellence, and didn't coddle poor performance. But he also didn't belittle poor performance, but tried to help the shooter overcome it.


Exactly. I haven't been CONSTRUCTIVELY pushed that hard in any other class.

I often run into situations in classes where the fact I am already above average means that I don't get as much direct instruction, the instructors spend more time dealing with that class's goons. Bennie equally spent his time with each student, and pushed us all to do better. There were much fewer everyone on the line at the same time drills and more individual assessment of abilities/progress.


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