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New postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 08:25 
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Another Quote from Danial Tanner......

"Does this mean that I can build my own aerials and launch them in my back yard"??

Answer: No. If you are in violation of a city code. Yes, if you are on private property, building them for personal use.
Here's where people get nabbed.....storage. Since stars have been declared to be "explosive comp", and since drying time for the average star is more than 24 hours, if you don't have a type 4 mag available, and you admit to having had the material for more than 24 hours, you can expect a citation, especially if you flunk the asshole test.
The state of AZ can regulate retail sales (or lack there of) and "Public Displays" through licensing, much like they regulate any public event such as concerts, etc. Private use of your own self-made aerial shells is not prohibited. Now, I obtained this informtion, and have it on video/audio tape in a conference with the AZ State Fire Marshal during Winter Blast 2002. Unless the rules have changed since then (and I'm quite certain that they have not, per other board members), that is the reason why no one has been the 'test guinie pig" yet. By her own admition, the AZ SFM said that even the state laws that they would like to prosecute people under, were unenforcible due to the way they were poorly written. She cited that a driver air bag could potentially be a violation. I countered her with the fact that a driver air-bag explosive was an exempt consumer commodity and she recanted her statement. Combined with the pre-emption clause which states: (not a direct quote) "Although it is not the 'intent' of the US Congress to over rule the rights of the states.......in cases where the state laws are inconsistant with federal law, federal shall superceed........" Uh... so, they are saying that they don't want to strip the state's rights, but if the state doesn't agree with them, then Fed law trumps state law? Sounds pretty shady to me. For what it's worth, as of 2003, all air-bag manufacturers had to obtain a federal type 20 high explosives manufacturing permit, even for intra-state mfg/sale.
I have conversations with the state of AZ on a regular basis. Here's what I'm willing to do for anyone who is interested. Any question that you may have, simply email me, and I'll draft a letter asking for an opinion, hand it over to my lawyers who specialize ONLY in fireworks/explosives law, and have them obtain a written response from the so-called authorities. I'll make sure have have my spell check working when I do this ;-)
At the present time, the sky is not falling, and no one is getting busted for anything fun unless they are being destructive or causing continuous complaints, normally after being warned first. When ever someone has the slightest brush with the law (with regards to my products or other various and sundry items) I'm the first to hear about it. To date, not one single person has been convicted for having fun, that I am aware of, unless they were being stupid and wreckless. Binary exploding targets are not a firework. If they DO become illegal, I'll be the first to be notified and will relay the information to this board. I can tell you that, although it's not illegal in most state to blow up your own car on your own property (I have case law in my hand on this), it's a REALLY bad idea to do so and post giggly videos all over the net. That is simply fuel for the antis and sheds a bad light on the firearms community at large. The calls that I have received from AZ authorities regarding exploding targets all, with out exception, stem from someone littering public land with shrapnel. Please urge others to buy some common sense.
Tannerite Inc.


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New postPosted: 04 Apr 2007, 11:53 
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Phoenix Firearms wrote:
canopy2k wrote:
What a sh*tstorm.

There really is no way around it, other than having the law deemed invalid. But, even if that were to happen, the legislature would just rewrite it and we would be right back to the same place.

Wonder who the first person to get busted is going to be?

c2k


Probably the Kid! LOL :D

Mont.

Hey now [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif], i don't need that grief in my life. Besides what is this Tannerite stuff you guys keep talking about?

Ummmm, maybe i should change my name to "BlackCatKid"?

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New postPosted: 04 Apr 2007, 11:55 
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hkmgs wrote:
Another Quote from Danial Tanner......

"Does this mean that I can build my own aerials and launch them in my back yard"??

Answer: No. If you are in violation of a city code. Yes, if you are on private property, building them for personal use.
Here's where people get nabbed.....storage. Since stars have been declared to be "explosive comp", and since drying time for the average star is more than 24 hours, if you don't have a type 4 mag available, and you admit to having had the material for more than 24 hours, you can expect a citation, especially if you flunk the asshole test.
The state of AZ can regulate retail sales (or lack there of) and "Public Displays" through licensing, much like they regulate any public event such as concerts, etc. Private use of your own self-made aerial shells is not prohibited. Now, I obtained this informtion, and have it on video/audio tape in a conference with the AZ State Fire Marshal during Winter Blast 2002. Unless the rules have changed since then (and I'm quite certain that they have not, per other board members), that is the reason why no one has been the 'test guinie pig" yet. By her own admition, the AZ SFM said that even the state laws that they would like to prosecute people under, were unenforcible due to the way they were poorly written. She cited that a driver air bag could potentially be a violation. I countered her with the fact that a driver air-bag explosive was an exempt consumer commodity and she recanted her statement. Combined with the pre-emption clause which states: (not a direct quote) "Although it is not the 'intent' of the US Congress to over rule the rights of the states.......in cases where the state laws are inconsistant with federal law, federal shall superceed........" Uh... so, they are saying that they don't want to strip the state's rights, but if the state doesn't agree with them, then Fed law trumps state law? Sounds pretty shady to me. For what it's worth, as of 2003, all air-bag manufacturers had to obtain a federal type 20 high explosives manufacturing permit, even for intra-state mfg/sale.
I have conversations with the state of AZ on a regular basis. Here's what I'm willing to do for anyone who is interested. Any question that you may have, simply email me, and I'll draft a letter asking for an opinion, hand it over to my lawyers who specialize ONLY in fireworks/explosives law, and have them obtain a written response from the so-called authorities. I'll make sure have have my spell check working when I do this ;-)
At the present time, the sky is not falling, and no one is getting busted for anything fun unless they are being destructive or causing continuous complaints, normally after being warned first. When ever someone has the slightest brush with the law (with regards to my products or other various and sundry items) I'm the first to hear about it. To date, not one single person has been convicted for having fun, that I am aware of, unless they were being stupid and wreckless. Binary exploding targets are not a firework. If they DO become illegal, I'll be the first to be notified and will relay the information to this board. I can tell you that, although it's not illegal in most state to blow up your own car on your own property (I have case law in my hand on this), it's a REALLY bad idea to do so and post giggly videos all over the net. That is simply fuel for the antis and sheds a bad light on the firearms community at large. The calls that I have received from AZ authorities regarding exploding targets all, with out exception, stem from someone littering public land with shrapnel. Please urge others to buy some common sense.
Tannerite Inc.


The U.S. Supreme Court seems to disagree with his interpretation. Look at the Stewart Case.

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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 04 Apr 2007, 18:13 
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You know,it's almost like some of you actually want Tannerite banned !


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New postPosted: 04 Apr 2007, 18:32 
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hkmgs wrote:
You know,it's almost like some of you actually want Tannerite banned !


I can't speak for others, but do not want it banned. However, I am also one not to try and see things in state law that are not there. It's pretty clear that under state law, Tannerite falls into one of two categories based on how the laws are written.

Now, that said, if there's a provision in federal law that supercedes/preempts state law in this, that's cool. If Tanner can quote the CFR or USC regarding this, then I'd like to see it. We've already outlined A.R.S. that appears to cover this, but all Mr. Tanner has offered is "I've spoken to..." and "Fed law says....". Well, if it "says" then let's see the cites.

I am all for having fun with Tannerite. I like the stuff a lot. But I can also see a zealous county attorney making a lot of political hay with this stuff.

In addition to whatever other violations there were, wasn't one of the charges against the Viper Militia making, and detonating, their own explosives?

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New postPosted: 04 Apr 2007, 20:43 
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hkmgs wrote:
You know,it's almost like some of you actually want Tannerite banned !


HKMGS,

From previous threads we have had on this I truly believe that you are correct. Alto they will not openly admit it.

Sad really. :(

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New postPosted: 04 Apr 2007, 20:53 
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hkmgs wrote:
You know,it's almost like some of you actually want Tannerite banned !


I don't want it banned, but according to my interpretation of the law, it's not legal in Arizona.

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New postPosted: 04 Apr 2007, 21:06 
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I'm in almost complete agreement with TimW's interpretation of the law here... I agree that Tannerite is fun stuff, I don't think it should be regulated, but I also agree that Federal law does not matter here, the state statute clearly encompasses Tannerite in the definition of fireworks. Let me explain...

My reading of the statute differs slightly from those above. I do agree that the statute sets three elements - and that they are inclusive, meaning all three are required, rather than individually sufficient. Here's how I separate it:
A.R.S. 36-1601 wrote:
1. "Fireworks":
(a) Means any combustible or explosive composition, substance or combination of substances, or any article prepared for the purpose of producing a visible or audible effect by combustion, explosion, deflagration or detonation, ... {removed portions not relevant to this specific discussion}.

First, the red section says what a firework is made from. Second, the green section says why it is made. Third, the blue section says how it works.

I think this is the proper separation of the clauses. First, I think it makes the most sense organizationally, separating them, as I described above, into "what," "why," and "how." Second, because I think it solves (more than the other interpretations) the ambiguities and absurdities like saying your gas tank or a match is a firework. Third, because it makes more sense grammatically... a grouping of nouns, connected by a verb to two prepositional phrases.

So the elements (that must all be met) are:
    - the "what"/nouns - any combustible or explosive composition, substance or combination of substances, or any article
    - the "why"/first preposition - prepared for the purpose of producing a visible or audible effect
    - the "how"/second preposition - by combustion, explosion, deflagration or detonation
Now let's test it out on Tannerite... Is Tannerite a "combustible or explosive composition, substance or combination of substances, or any article?" YES, Tannerite is an explosive composition. Is Tannerite prepared for the purpose of producing a visible or audible effect? YES, we use it because it goes boom. Does the visible or audible effect happen by combustion, explosion, deflagration or detonation? YES, Tannerite works by explosion.

So... ignoring Federal law because it is completely irrelevant to this discussion... under Arizona statute, is Tannerite a firework? The answer appears to me to be YES, YES, YES.

Now I'd like to address some of the confusion about Tannerite being "allowed by Federal law," etc. As we are all well-aware in regards to firearms, when the Federal gov't legislates, it does not necessarily preclude the states from having stricter regulations. There are federal firearms laws, yet New York and others still have "assault weapons' bans. Mr. Tanner's argument is akin to saying that, since the federal government regulates firearm commerce (licenses, sales, possession, transport, etc), that the people in New York don't have to worry about New York's law. As we all know, this is NOT the case. In some cases, the federal gov't chooses to preempt state law, for example, ONLY the federal gov't regulates the safety of nuclear power plants. However, there is no evidence that federal law preempts Arizona's firework laws. If it did, we could go to a fireworks stand on July 3rd to buy all the fireworks we want, and Mr. Tanner would be selling his actual fireworks to us... but he doesn't. Because Arizona has laws against private use of fireworks, and those laws are valid and enforceable.

I am absolutely NOT saying Mr. Tanner, or his company, are doing anything wrong or illegal. They're not. They aren't selling and shipping fireworks to us, just chemicals. They're very conveniently packaged and propotioned chemicals - but nonetheless no different than the fertilizer, cleaning agents, and other chemicals you can buy from brick-and-mortar stores here. But when the binary compounds are mixed for use as a target, the result under Arizona law is a firework. Even then, neither Mr. Tanner nor his company have anything wrong - the crime under Arizona law is "to sell, offer or expose for sale, use, explode or possess any fireworks" without a permit. (A.R.S. 36-1602)

I am also not saying that you are going to be cited or arrested just for using Tannerite - just that it's a possibility. It's like speeding... many, many people speed, and very, very few get "caught." But just because they don't "catch" you, doesn't mean it's legal. So if you do use Tannerite... stay under the radar by using it SAFELY and RESPONSIBLY!

ETA: I'd also like to clarify that I like Tannerite, I'm a fan, it's pretty fun stuff... so please don't tell me that I want it banned. That's like saying I want to ban speeding, or unregistered machine guns. What I want, is people to act responsibly... so law enforcement doesn't crack down and strictly enforce the laws against something that is already illegal.

ETA2: fix typo


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New postPosted: 04 Apr 2007, 22:45 
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tanneritekid wrote:
hkmgs wrote:
You know,it's almost like some of you actually want Tannerite banned !


HKMGS,

From previous threads we have had on this I truly believe that you are correct. Alto they will not openly admit it.

Sad really. :(


Please. That's like saying I want the 2nd Amendment, CCW permits repealed and have RKBA generally denied because, though I disagree with it, ARS is clear that carrying into a restaurant that sells booze is illegal, even though many people do it.

I think it's more "it's almost like people who are arguing against what the law clearly says don't want to admit the fact that the law covers Tannerite". Again, calling a dog's tail a leg doesn't make it so, just because you call it a leg.

Yes, I like Tannerite. But I also understand what that means in the context of A.R.S.

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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 05 Apr 2007, 07:44 
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Personally, what I've seen regarding tannerite usage in Arizona, I'm not convinced that if it becomes illegal in AZ that it would be a bad thing.

Perhaps some folks would try to do something else with their rifles beyond earning a 4.0 in damage.

Regardless of that, I think the fireworks laws in AZ are inappropriate and should be repealed. Does tannerite fall into the definition of a firework per the ARS? Quite obviously.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using tannerite responsibly, but I've seen little evidence of responsible use. I sure as hell have seen a lot of irresponsible use.

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New postPosted: 05 Apr 2007, 10:04 
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by combustion, explosion, deflagration or detonation, ... {removed portions not relevant to this specific discussion}.
So with this said I'm not all up to speed here, but where would a rifle round fall in place here for setting off tannerite. Not trying to sound dumb, just looking for clarification Thanks


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New postPosted: 05 Apr 2007, 10:46 
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Hyjet @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:04 am wrote:
by combustion, explosion, deflagration or detonation, ... {removed portions not relevant to this specific discussion}.
So with this said I'm not all up to speed here, but where would a rifle round fall in place here for setting off tannerite. Not trying to sound dumb, just looking for clarification Thanks


By 'removing portions not relevant to this specific discussion', you removed a portion that was, well, relevant to this specific discussion, to wit:

Quote:
prepared for the purpose of producing a visible or audible effect


A rifle round is prepared for the purpose of shooting a target. Any audible effect is a by-product of this purpose.

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 Post subject: Tannerite NOT a firework
New postPosted: 05 Apr 2007, 12:36 
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Hi folks,
Decided to log in to the fine board here. I offered any interested parties to email me direct for the pre-emption clause of CFR. I received zero inquiries. The offer stands. I am choosing not to post (*on a public forum) the six reasons why Tannerite is legal in AZ and every other state due to the fact that any political entity with an ax to grind could then zero in on those particular exemptions and potentially change the laws to suit their own agenda.
Our team of explosives/fireworks lawyers (and that is the only law they practice) has specifically replied to my inquiries about Tannerite being ruled a 'firework' in AZ and they have all concured that the targets are NOT a firework after researching the subject. The targets are a shot indicator and approved as a consumer commodity, even after mixed. This is why not one single person has been charged/convicted for using Tannerite in AZ after hundreds of contacts by state and local agencies.
If you don't feel comfortable shooting reactive targets, then by all means...shoot a paper target, shoot a tin can, or stay home.
Please note: There HAVE been persons charged for disturbing the peace, when the targets have been shot in close quarters, and others HAVE been charged with various and sundry violations when using the targets irresponsibly. IE: BEING STUPID. Please, if you are going to use the product, use it right. We don't need any more black eyes caused by the actions of a few.
Take care, and email me direct or if you would like, contact my lawyers and they/we will answer any questions that you may have.
Cordially,
Daniel@Tannerite


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New postPosted: 11 Feb 2008, 23:37 
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Ceramic_God wrote:
Personally, what I've seen regarding tannerite usage in Arizona, I'm not convinced that if it becomes illegal in AZ that it would be a bad thing.

Perhaps some folks would try to do something else with their rifles beyond earning a 4.0 in damage.

Regardless of that, I think the fireworks laws in AZ are inappropriate and should be repealed. Does tannerite fall into the definition of a firework per the ARS? Quite obviously.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using tannerite responsibly, but I've seen little evidence of responsible use. I sure as hell have seen a lot of irresponsible use.

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 Post subject: Re: Tannerite NOT a firework
New postPosted: 11 Feb 2008, 23:48 
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Tannerite Inc. wrote:
Hi folks,
Decided to log in to the fine board here. I offered any interested parties to email me direct for the pre-emption clause of CFR. I received zero inquiries. The offer stands. I am choosing not to post (*on a public forum) the six reasons why Tannerite is legal in AZ and every other state due to the fact that any political entity with an ax to grind could then zero in on those particular exemptions and potentially change the laws to suit their own agenda.
Our team of explosives/fireworks lawyers (and that is the only law they practice) has specifically replied to my inquiries about Tannerite being ruled a 'firework' in AZ and they have all concured that the targets are NOT a firework after researching the subject. The targets are a shot indicator and approved as a consumer commodity, even after mixed. This is why not one single person has been charged/convicted for using Tannerite in AZ after hundreds of contacts by state and local agencies.
If you don't feel comfortable shooting reactive targets, then by all means...shoot a paper target, shoot a tin can, or stay home.
Please note: There HAVE been persons charged for disturbing the peace, when the targets have been shot in close quarters, and others HAVE been charged with various and sundry violations when using the targets irresponsibly. IE: BEING STUPID. Please, if you are going to use the product, use it right. We don't need any more black eyes caused by the actions of a few.
Take care, and email me direct or if you would like, contact my lawyers and they/we will answer any questions that you may have.
Cordially,
Daniel@Tannerite


Huh I never did see this post by Daniel, good post.

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