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Do you voluntarily disclose to LEO that you are carrying?
Yes, I volunteer that information up front. 60%  60%  [ 35 ]
No, I only disclose that information if asked. 40%  40%  [ 23 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 11:32 am 
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In the course of a routine traffic stop, do you voluntarily notify the LEO that you are carrying a gun, or do you only disclose that information if the LEO asks?

Arizona Revised Statutes Sec. 13-3102(A) says:
Quote:
A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:

1. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation:

(a) In the furtherance of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706, a violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03 or any other felony offense; or

(b) When contacted by a law enforcement officer and failing to accurately answer the officer if the officer asks whether the person is carrying a concealed deadly weapon; ....


Before answering the poll, consider this article: http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/29/in-light-of-the-philando-castile-shootin

Two schools of thought:
- If you voluntarily disclose, you might get a hoplophobic cop who goes crazy and puts you at risk; or you might get a "fear-biter" cop (as in the Philando Castile case) who is so afraid of armed citizens that he/she perceives a "furtive movement" if you sneeze or scratch yourself, and shoots "to be on the safe side"; or you might get an officious cop who insists on taking possession of your gun, then handling it and attempting to unload it incompetently, putting him/herself, you and the rest of the world at risk of being shot accidentally.
- If you don't voluntarily disclose, and the info pops up on the LEO's computer, he/she may get angry and treat you harshly, either with a ticket that might otherwise have been a warning, or by ordering you out of the car and putting you face down on the ground, or pointing his/her gun at you.

I know, such things do not happen often, but they do happen. Which risk do you choose?

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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 11:41 am 
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Since I get pulled over about every 10 or 15 years, it's really a non-issue for me.

Dogslayer


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 11:48 am 
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Joined: June 4th, 2011, 7:48 am
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Location: NW Valley
I would hand the officer my CCW permit with my license. Otherwise, as you mentioned, the info will pop up on his
computer that you have a CCW permit. It isn't often that something goofy will happen but I have heard about incidents
where cops lose it and get pissed.

Cops often are not into guns and don't even know what a CCW permit is so they aren't aware that you had to get a
background check to have the permit. I'd make sure to tell him about the background check early in the conversation.
Being polite is the best way to keep things calm and reasonable. It doesn't hurt to also be old like me. We seniors are
less likely to be harassed. The polite ones anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 12:00 pm 
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Joined: January 12th, 2011, 6:05 pm
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I got pulled over shortly after moving here for speeding. I advised the Officer I had a 9mm right rear hip concealed. He gave me the old "Keep yours in your holster, and mine will stay in my holster".

That said, when pulled over, I immediately pull to the next safe stopping area, I turn the car off and place keys on the dash where they are visible, and I keep hands on the wheel at 10 & 2 until I speak with the Officer. I have found those little things generally set an Officer a little more at ease that I am not fleeing or anything. Then after advising I am carrying, I verbally advise if I have to get my wallet or anything. If we are acknowledging what each says I know we are on the same page.


Bottom line, don't BS them, be honest, and give respect to get respect.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 12:02 pm 
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Joined: June 5th, 2006, 2:29 am
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Location: N. Messico aka. Tucson, AZ
I ALWAYS tell the LEO that there is a firearm in the car, and keep my hands on the wheel or out the window until he tells me otherwise. My CCW instructor drilled this into us and it has stuck, all these years later.

AND, it has gotten me out of tickets with just a warning once or twice [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]

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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 12:55 pm 
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Cool-Arrow wrote:
I ALWAYS tell the LEO that there is a firearm in the car, and keep my hands on the wheel or out the window until he tells me otherwise. My CCW instructor drilled this into us and it has stuck, all these years later.

AND, it has gotten me out of tickets with just a warning once or twice [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]


Pretty much this. It ain't hard.

Keep your hands clearly visible and stationary. Calmly inform the officer you have a weapon and where it is and you don't want him to be surprised. its always worked well for me and for those that provided this courtesy to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 1:13 pm 
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No...but im white and clean cut so the chances of me getting philando'd is pretty slim.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 6:14 pm 
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I understand that most cops are cool with the CCW, but the risk is that you get the 1 in 100,000, or 1,000,000, or whatever, who is not cool, the one who is a fear-biter and will kill you.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/29/in-light-of-the-philando-castile-shootin

Quote:
Had Castile said nothing about the gun, he in all likelihood would still be alive.

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Guns don't kill people.
Gun-free zones kill people.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 6:38 pm 
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milquetoast wrote:
I understand that most cops are cool with the CCW, but the risk is that you get the 1 in 100,000, or 1,000,000, or whatever, who is not cool, the one who is a fear-biter and will kill you.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/29/in-light-of-the-philando-castile-shootin

Quote:
Had Castile said nothing about the gun, he in all likelihood would still be alive.


Bullshit.

Do you think Castile was the first armed person this cop encountered? It wasn't but it was the first one he shot.

Telling a cop you have a gun isn't going to get you shot. Castile's issue wasn't what he said, but how he declared while moving his hands. That combined with other factors plus a high strung cop got him shot. The cop wasn't convicted because he was able to convince the jury that there was a reasonableness to his actions. He couldn't have done so if he said he shot him just because Castile declared he was armed.

Keep your hands visible and on the wheel. It takes about 2 seconds for the cop to realize you are not a threat, and the reason you declared was for their safety. Generally they are grateful. Even the most jaded badge heavy and anti gun cops I've encountered are far more inclined to just send you on your way and clear the stop.

Castile didn't deserve to get shot. However he violated the biggest rule in officer safety which is being able to see someone's hands.

Stopping an armed violator is Not a rare occurrence. You never hear about that, but fixate on the one encounter that went bad. I've also been stopped while armed. Although I deserved a citation, I never got one. Never even had an officer upholster his weapon. It wasn't my skin color that got this result.

A cops job often has them dealing with the worst of humanity. I find it highly beneficial to clearly identify myself as the 99% that is the normal, mostly law abiding citizen.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 7:55 pm 
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Joe_Blacke wrote:
milquetoast wrote:
I understand that most cops are cool with the CCW, but the risk is that you get the 1 in 100,000, or 1,000,000, or whatever, who is not cool, the one who is a fear-biter and will kill you.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/29/in-light-of-the-philando-castile-shootin

Quote:
Had Castile said nothing about the gun, he in all likelihood would still be alive.


Bullshit.

Do you think Castile was the first armed person this cop encountered? It wasn't but it was the first one he shot.

Telling a cop you have a gun isn't going to get you shot. Castile's issue wasn't what he said, but how he declared while moving his hands. That combined with other factors plus a high strung cop got him shot. The cop wasn't convicted because he was able to convince the jury that there was a reasonableness to his actions. He couldn't have done so if he said he shot him just because Castile declared he was armed.

Keep your hands visible and on the wheel. It takes about 2 seconds for the cop to realize you are not a threat, and the reason you declared was for their safety. Generally they are grateful. Even the most jaded badge heavy and anti gun cops I've encountered are far more inclined to just send you on your way and clear the stop.

Castile didn't deserve to get shot. However he violated the biggest rule in officer safety which is being able to see someone's hands.

Stopping an armed violator is Not a rare occurrence. You never hear about that, but fixate on the one encounter that went bad. I've also been stopped while armed. Although I deserved a citation, I never got one. Never even had an officer upholster his weapon. It wasn't my skin color that got this result.

A cops job often has them dealing with the worst of humanity. I find it highly beneficial to clearly identify myself as the 99% that is the normal, mostly law abiding citizen.

"Do you think Castile was the first armed person this cop encountered? It wasn't but it was the first one he shot." I don't know if it was the first armed person he encountered. It could have been. He had been on the force for four years; quite possible it had not happened before. Not sure how you know that it wasn't. Was that information presented at the trial?

I suggest that Yanez shot Castile because of "stacking of tolerances." A series of things went wrong. The initial reason given for the stop was "taillight," but it turns out that was not the truth. Yhe taillight was a pretext; the real reason for the stop was that Yanez thought that Castile fit the description of a wanted felon, "black man with a broad nose." Kind of a vague description, and arguably not probable cause for a stop. In any case, Yanez came into the situation already on edge. For Castile, it was a routine traffic stop; for Yanez, it was not.

Next time any one of us is stopped, should we wonder if it is because we match a description of a criminal, or our car matches the description of a car used in a crime? That cop walking up on us might already be on edge.

Yanez gave conflicting commands, and Castile either did not announce his CCW fast enough, or he didn't have time. When Yanez approached, were Castile's hands on the wheel? Why should we assume they were not? They might have been -- or might not; we don't know. What if they were? The cop said "Show me your license," so Castile complied, while at the same time announcing his pistol. Yanez said "Don't reach for it," and Castile said he wasn't reaching for it -- he was reaching for his identification, as he had been ordered to do. He quite reasonably assumed that since he had been a good guy and informed the officer, and that Yanez had told him to show his ID, that it would be cool. He did not know that the cop thought he matched a description of a bad guy, and that the cop was unusually skittish.

Assuming Yanez had received FATS or similar training, he had role-played people reaching for objects, sometimes producing a weapon, sometimes not. He was supposed to have learned Rule Four from that training: Be sure of your target. If you see a gun, that's one thing; if you think it might be a gun, wait until you know for sure. If he had not received such training, then it's on the department for not teaching shoot/no shoot. Next time one of us is stopped, perhaps we should wonder whether the LEO has had shoot/no-shoot training, or whether the training has "taken."

The fact is, if Castile had just not mentioned the gun, he would not have set off the "series of unfortunate events," and most likely would not have been shot. He would have produced his ID; Yanez would have realized he was not the wanted criminal, and warned him about the alleged "taillight problem," and they would have gone their separate ways.

Yanez was acquitted, but he was also fired, and will not work as a cop again -- IMO a good thing. He doesn't have the temperament for it -- too "high strung," as noted. Castile's family got a multi-million dollar settlement, but again, all this would (most likely) have been avoided if he had never said anything about his CCW.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 8:46 pm 
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I'm not paranoid; why not tell them? The one time I got pulled over with a gun I told the cop where it was and he never mentioned it again. I personally have over 30 traffic tickets, but I have no general ill will or distrust of the cops.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 9:44 pm 
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BigBlueandGoldie wrote:
I'm not paranoid; why not register my guns? .

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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 9:44 pm 
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milquetoast wrote:


"Do you think Castile was the first armed person this cop encountered? It wasn't but it was the first one he shot." I don't know if it was the first armed person he encountered. It could have been. He had been on the force for four years; quite possible it had not happened before. Not sure how you know that it wasn't. Was that information presented at the trial?

I suggest that Yanez shot Castile because of "stacking of tolerances." A series of things went wrong. The initial reason given for the stop was "taillight," but it turns out that was not the truth. Yhe taillight was a pretext; the real reason for the stop was that Yanez thought that Castile fit the description of a wanted felon, "black man with a broad nose." Kind of a vague description, and arguably not probable cause for a stop. In any case, Yanez came into the situation already on edge. For Castile, it was a routine traffic stop; for Yanez, it was not.

Next time any one of us is stopped, should we wonder if it is because we match a description of a criminal, or our car matches the description of a car used in a crime? That cop walking up on us might already be on edge.

Yanez gave conflicting commands, and Castile either did not announce his CCW fast enough, or he didn't have time. When Yanez approached, were Castile's hands on the wheel? Why should we assume they were not? They might have been -- or might not; we don't know. What if they were? The cop said "Show me your license," so Castile complied, while at the same time announcing his pistol. Yanez said "Don't reach for it," and Castile said he wasn't reaching for it -- he was reaching for his identification, as he had been ordered to do. He quite reasonably assumed that since he had been a good guy and informed the officer, and that Yanez had told him to show his ID, that it would be cool. He did not know that the cop thought he matched a description of a bad guy, and that the cop was unusually skittish.

Assuming Yanez had received FATS or similar training, he had role-played people reaching for objects, sometimes producing a weapon, sometimes not. He was supposed to have learned Rule Four from that training: Be sure of your target. If you see a gun, that's one thing; if you think it might be a gun, wait until you know for sure. If he had not received such training, then it's on the department for not teaching shoot/no shoot. Next time one of us is stopped, perhaps we should wonder whether the LEO has had shoot/no-shoot training, or whether the training has "taken."

The fact is, if Castile had just not mentioned the gun, he would not have set off the "series of unfortunate events," and most likely would not have been shot. He would have produced his ID; Yanez would have realized he was not the wanted criminal, and warned him about the alleged "taillight problem," and they would have gone their separate ways.

Yanez was acquitted, but he was also fired, and will not work as a cop again -- IMO a good thing. He doesn't have the temperament for it -- too "high strung," as noted. Castile's family got a multi-million dollar settlement, but again, all this would (most likely) have been avoided if he had never said anything about his CCW.


Yes, I know for a fact that he had encountered armed individuals before. He had even arrested armed felons.

Yes, in the academy there is tons of scenario based training, including fats. The problem with this training is that in most cases it is to drill the recruit into understanding that there are dangerous people willing to kill you and you need to be ready. most of us are preprogrammed to NOT shoot people. We rarely have to be taught that. It's the opposite that firearms and defensive tactics instructors have to teach. You can't create a scenario for every encounter you might face. Good judgement and common sense have to be developed elsewhere.

You even admit that declaring didn't get him shot, but the totality of the circumstances. Once the officer had new information, then he absolutely didn't want Castile to reach toward his waist area. No cop on a potential felony stop would. In this particular case Castile was going to get removed from the vehicle anyway, and I assure you the gun would have been found. As high strung as yanez was this would not have gone well. In fact there is no way to know if Castile had not declared he wouldn't have been shot anyway. Again, I don't think this was a good shoot. However I was pretty confident yanez would be able to raise reasonable doubt.

Cops are drilled on officer safety. Traffic stops are inherently unsafe and are where most cops are killed. Either by a violator or by traffic. These are incredibly high stress encounters and city cops don't usually do as many traffic stops as you would think. Often they are running from domestic call to domestic call and let traffic cops do traffic stops.

Putting the officer into a situation that makes him feel safer and less stressed is bad, why?

This is my formula. When being stopped, acknowledge it by slowing down, signaling, and find the best area to pull over. That means getting as far onto the shoulder as possible for highways even exit the highway entirely depending on location (specifically I-17) pull into a parking lot, possibly a side street if being stopped on a major surface street. While stopping roll down both front windows (some agencies teach driver side approach and some teach passenger side). Don't try to get any documents, or open any compartments like the center console or glove boxes. These are office safety flags. Once stopped put the car in park and turn off the engine. Keep you hands on the wheel. Let the officer get through his introductions and calmly tell them that before you reach anywhere that you wanted him to be informed that you are armed and where your gun is located. He will then give you instructions on how he wants to proceed.

Usually by the time I tell him where my gun is located, I get a thanks and sent on my way without even getting my license out. It is era rare that they will run the license but often just hand it back with a verbal warning.

Now, granted I've only been stopped 5 or so times I'm my life. Each time (except one) ive deserved a cittation. Each time I never received anything more than a verbal warning. I've been on the other side of the traffic stop a lot more, though. :D Generally cops try to only do as much as required to obtain voluntary compliance with the traffic laws. If they think a warning is enough, great. However, some people you can tell that even a citation isn't enough. Yeah, I know that most cops say they have decided on a course of action before they get out of the car, but in reality it is decided after interaction with the driver.

Try a few ride alongs. A few agencies still do it. Most, though won't let you get out of the car on a traffic stop as it is too unsafe. Participate in a citizens academy.

Cops are human beings. Unless you are an a-hole, a felon, or some other undesireable it is incredibly easy to use good manners and communication to your benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 10:04 pm 
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blue109 wrote:
BigBlueandGoldie wrote:
I'm not paranoid; why not register my guns? .


Tighten up your tinfoil. Between my CCW, tax stamps, and 4473's, the government knows I have guns. Telling a traffic cop I have a gun isn't a big deal, but good job at making something out of nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you voluntarily tell an LEO that you are carrying?
New postPosted: July 4th, 2017, 10:17 pm 
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Joe_Blacke wrote:
Cops are human beings. Unless you are an a-hole


That's only 1/2 the story. To ignore the other half is unfair.

Sometimes the "cop" is an a-hole or having a bad day. That evokes a reaction from the civilian. Some "cops" reply with a very badge & gun heavy response.

90+% of civilians are just human beings projected into a situation that the "cop" is much more familiar with and the civilian is not. A large percentage of the time the "cop" sets the tone of the encounter.

As a post script; I always answer honestly if asked but I volunteer nothing, there is no need.

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